EP69 - CULTURAL DRAWING MOVEMENT FACILITATOR - Helen Girling

Helen is the founder of Sketchface, a creative drawing movement based in Chelmsford that helps people rediscover the joy of drawing. She’s also an unapologetic early bird, often waking at 4:44am and using the hour between 5 and 6am as her creative power hour.

Sketchface is designed to level the playing field. It doesn’t matter whether you can draw or not. Through playful exercises and simple rules, participants are encouraged to get out of their own way, let go of perfectionism, and enjoy the creative process. Sessions are fuelled by music, movement and experimentation, creating a space where people can make work freely without worrying about getting it wrong.

We discuss how many people lose confidence in drawing through their experiences at school, and how Helen’s approach helps people reconnect with creativity. Exercises often include drawing with a continuous line, drawing without looking at the paper, using a non-dominant hand, or holding a pencil from the very top. The rules act as a "get out clause", removing the pressure to control the outcome and helping participants avoid judging their work too harshly.

A popular warm-up exercise is “writing for the bin” – creating something with no expectation of keeping it, simply to enjoy the process before throwing it away. Sketchface embraces this mindset throughout, encouraging play rather than performance.

At Sketchface events, participants both draw and pose for one another, creating an interesting dynamic where everyone gets to observe and be observed. Drawings are exchanged at the end of the session. This leads to a conversation about vulnerability, including Nick’s memorable experience of drawing a life model as a centaur and then having to show it during a serious critique session.

We talk about the strange intensity of sitting and looking at someone for sixty seconds, and Helen’s giant soft emotional-support pencil, which participants can cuddle if they feel uncomfortable posing.

The philosophy behind Sketchface is heavily influenced by illustrator Wendy MacNaughton and her belief that drawing can be a tool for connection rather than judgement. Helen asks a simple question: if creativity only makes you feel bad about yourself, why would you continue doing it?

The conversation also explores Helen’s background in art psychotherapy and the fashion industry, her habit of drawing a self-portrait every day for the last five years, and how daily creative rituals can become a meaningful practice. Nick compares this to his own project of taking a photograph in the first photo booth he encountered each day for a year.

Other topics include drawing on the floor rather than at a desk or easel, Sangita draws for the first time in years, the surprisingly difficult challenge of drawing trees, the emotional complexity of illustrating hugs, Nick’s recommendation of the game Six Second Scribbles, and the importance of creating environments where people feel safe enough to experiment.

Ultimately, Sketchface is less about learning to draw and more about learning to enjoy drawing again.

Helen Girling Art
Sketch Face

Are You Creative? recorded by Adam at Lawker Media, Chelmsford, ESSEX
Edited by Nick Hearne
Artwork by Alpaca Antenna

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Thanks to NGDA for their support

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

I'm like a robot that slowly winds down.

Nick 0:04

What time do you start winding down?

SPEAKER_01 0:06

Uh about seven o'clock.

Nick 0:07

What and then you go and sit on your recharge chair. You go charging. And then the little little thing goes on your forehead.

SPEAKER_01 0:15

Well, the battery just goes up there.

Nick 0:16

Really?

SPEAKER_01 0:17

Yeah. It's like I stop finding uh nouns, words, everything. I was saying to my kids this morning, I was like, I'm not worried, I'm really looking forward to it, but if only it was the morning. Oh yeah.

Nick 0:29

So um what's your best time?

SPEAKER_01 0:31

Uh well I keep waking up at 4 44.

Nick 0:34

Yeah? You like the symmetry.

SPEAKER_01 0:36

Yeah, and I and now I've got that in my head. I keep thinking, oh, I wonder if it's 4 44. I'll just check.

Nick 0:41

Really? Yeah. Why'd you wake up so early?

SPEAKER_01 0:44

Because in order to do my creative practice, I've had to find really creative ways of fitting it in. Otherwise, it just doesn't happen.

Nick 0:55

What around your kids?

SPEAKER_01 0:56

Yeah, so I'm I'm always up by five, and that is my absolute power hour.

Nick 1:02

Oh my god, you're making us this is like when you hear about the Hollywood people, you know, like when it's like, here's what the rock does wake up at four, have a broading cheek, down the gym, 4 30, doing this, this, this.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

But what you're gonna get is that lovely flip reality of the fact that I won't be able to swing a sentence together, man. So we're gonna have that really trajectory. So hang on, hang on. A whole trajectory.

Nick 1:21

You know, like I saw a documentary about David Hockney once, and he said he'll get up, he'll do a picture before breakfast, email it to all his friends, yeah, and then he'll have breakfast, then he'll do another picture. So this is like you're you've you've held Hockney Hockney because you're you're you're awake before Hockney starts drawing.

SPEAKER_00 1:36

Tell me more.

Nick 1:38

This is crazy. My perfect creative time about 11 pm till 2am. Oh wow, oh my god, I'm on fire at that time. When the when the world's quiet, all the distractions are gone, your phone stop buzzing, and just like my brain is just like ready for action. But I have to make myself go to bed because you've got to wake up and do the next thing.

SPEAKER_01 2:00

I do know what we can do.

Nick 2:01

What we can do. I'll just I'll send you a digital high five, I'll tag you in. We've got creative, we've got creativity covered, 24 hours a day.

Lora 2:08

That's a good point. Really? I mean, Helen, it's time for the morning shift. Yeah, lovely.

Nick 2:12

Well, we could do that, yeah.

Lora 2:14

Yeah, because I'm an early person like Helen.

Nick 2:16

Are you? Yeah, you're 5am though.

Lora 2:17

Um, sometimes that's 5am out the door.

Nick 2:20

Oh, I can see you saying it, you're gonna be uh 4-4-3.

Lora 2:25

4-4-3. That Helen said 4-4-4.

SPEAKER_01 2:27

I thought, oh my god, yeah, that's someone said to me, I'm so sorry you're waking up at that time. And I was like, I'm not.

Nick 2:33

Oh, it's brilliant. What people don't realise it's like the secret world, that's why I like working up late as well. There's nothing else going on. You can like get locked in, you can like focus, you can do your stuff. Absolutely.

SPEAKER_01 2:42

I've got a little hedgehole, which is where I sit on my kitchen table. So it's the only time in my house that it's really quiet, and I can be sure that no one is going to interrupt me. And there's a little hedgehole, and I can if if all the conditions are right, then I can see the sun just coming through it. Through the hedgehole.

Nick 2:59

Oh my god, and I'm like, I can't miss that. It's like you've got your own creative stone henge, and then the things are sun through it, the kids are like, Where's my breakfast? I'm in Naple for school. It's food tech today.

SPEAKER_01 3:11

Mum, it's food tech. Oh no, food tech.

Nick 3:19

Welcome back to Are You Creative, the podcast about creativity in Essex for people from Essex or living in Essex, doesn't matter. As long as you're in Essex, from Essex, or in Oh god, I can't even talk now. See, I've gone crazy. Helen's just Helen's like robbed my energy now to get herself free of the podcast. Essex. That's all you need to know. Essex and creativity. I'm Nick Hearn. I'm a creative director. I know all about creativity. And I've been painting concrete canvas this week, which is really fun. Doing a bit of community. My first outdoor painting ever. No way. Oh my god, look getting live feedback is amazing. Oh, that's amazing. Everyone was coming along saying they were loving it, and it was so good, and saying how talented I was, and I got a bit of an ego. Honestly, it was so good.

Lora 4:01

Oh, we're not getting out of the studio today.

Nick 4:05

I met such a lovely lady like Leonie, who was painting one, two, painting a bollard two down from me. Some bloke got out of his car and he's like, What's that supposed to be? And and it's like, I just yeah, I just bummed her out all day. You know, you can have a hundred amazing positive comments, then one bad one. She she'd only just started, you can't say what's that supposed to be like when someone's just started.

Lora 4:24

And to stop the car and get out, so they obviously What are you doing?

Nick 4:27

You're doing henna art at concrete canvas, right?

Lora 4:30

Well, I'm not doing it, my young people are doing it. I'm not that creative. I keep telling people. You should learn henna. No, I should. Well, because it's tattooed, it's not that simple because you get stained. So if you do mess it up, you will see those move.

Nick 4:44

There's no undo.

Lora 4:46

But I've got a wonderful crew this Saturday for Concrete Canvas. They are young people.

Nick 4:50

It's not this Saturday listeners, by the way, because uh this is not out.

Lora 4:53

Oh, yeah, sorry.

Nick 4:54

But yeah, I forgot. In get in your time machine, get in your time machine, go back to that Saturday.

Lora 4:59

Yep, so that Saturday we did the henna. Yeah.

Nick 5:02

Big up yourself, concrete canvas. So good. And we have got another creative guest in here called Helen. I I normally get the guests to say their name.

SPEAKER_01 5:12

Your name is Oh, Helen Girling. We are on fire. Helen Girling.

Nick 5:19

I've definitely.

Lora 5:20

Helen Girling. Yes. You've heard of Helen Girling? Definitely.

Nick 5:22

How many times have you ever heard someone say Helen Girling so many times in one it's weird, isn't it, when people say your name?

Lora 5:29

I've definitely heard.

Nick 5:30

You've heard the name Helen Girling. Absolutely. It's not a name you forget, is it? No. Helen Girling? Are you from Essex?

SPEAKER_01 5:38

I am.

Nick 5:39

Are you from Chelmsford?

SPEAKER_01 5:40

Well, all over, really. Really? Where? Yeah, I've lived uh East Hanningfield, Ingatestone. Now I live in a little village. And I'm looking to move back to uh central Chelmsford.

Nick 5:53

Are you saying you've never left you've never left the uh warm embrace of the CM postcode, basically?

SPEAKER_01 5:56

No, I did live in London for quite a few years.

Nick 5:59

Alright, here we go. But you're you're in Essex. Essex and Proud. Yeah. Oh no, sorry, that's another radio station's thing, isn't it?

SPEAKER_02 6:06

Uh Proud in Essex.

Nick 6:09

Proud in Essex, yeah. Um Helen Girling, are you creative?

SPEAKER_02 6:14

Yeah.

Nick 6:17

Good. We can find out more. Sagia, you said you know about Helen. You know you know the name.

Lora 6:22

I have heard of Helen's name, and as I said to Helen when I got to speak to her at the door, your face looks very familiar, and as you said, it was Ignite. So I'm really excited to reacquaint myself with Helen.

Nick 6:34

Oh, exciting. So Helen does well, mainly we're here to talk about Sketchface, but we're here to talk about Helen. What is Sketchface?

SPEAKER_01 6:43

It is a cultural drawing movement powered by people, community, identity, and creativity.

Nick 6:50

It sounds like you said that before.

SPEAKER_01 6:52

Well, is this your like strap line? I've been up so early. Yeah, just when I can be rigorous, I'm gonna lean in. I love it.

Nick 6:58

No, no, no, no, no, but I love it. I love it. It was like so super efficient. In fact, it was too slick and I can't even remember what you said.

SPEAKER_01 7:03

Okay.

Nick 7:04

Powered by people.

SPEAKER_01 7:06

It is a cultural drawing movement. So it is about community, it's about people, and it's about creativity, and it's about identity, and it's about the power of drawing, not about whether you're a good drawer or not.

Nick 7:20

Oh, I love it. So basically, making art accessible, I think like one of the big barriers to art is that people are really scared of doing it because they feel exposed or they think they'll do it rubbish or something like that. It's really scary if someone asks you to draw a picture. So I get you. If I ask you to draw a picture now, would you be scared of doing it? Like I'd judge you.

Lora 7:38

Absolutely. Because you're a creative director and you're really good at things. So if I'm sitting here with someone like yourself or even Helen, and one of you said, Oh, listen, just draw something. Because I know I can't draw, I'd be like, Well no, I can't do it. Because I feel automatically, because you're experts, it's not gonna be. I feel like you're gonna laugh at it or something.

Nick 7:57

Yeah, so so basically anyone could turn up to Sketchface whether they've drawn really good at drawing or not, and feel totally comfortable to draw and not be judged.

SPEAKER_01 8:06

Sketchface is about my obsession with um drawing and creativity, and how all of my life I've got in my own way because you want to be good at something, and so it's born of all of the things that I've ever learned along the way, whether it's in fashion or teaching or um art psychotherapy, um, and really everyone can draw with Sketch Face, and it's about putting the fun back into drawing, and I lead you through playful exercises where you cannot do it wrong. Yes, and actually, the people that um come that haven't drawn since they are at school are so empowered because we're all we're all just enjoying the process, not the outcome.

Nick 8:49

Now, I right I saw photos of Sketchface with one of our previous guests, brilliant Elaine Tribley. Oh the uh fine art rebel. She went, she went, she went along to it and she put these pictures up, and like everyone was just grinning and laughing and and having a really good time. Oh, yeah. And I thought, I want to know more about this, I want to go to this because I mean art should be fun, right? I don't want to go into a quiet room where where it's got classical music on it.

Lora 9:12

Yeah, that's that's how I would vision an art session where it's quiet, it's not so fun, people are really serious.

SPEAKER_01 9:20

But if you think about creativity, creativity is a really powerful force as long as you're not worried about getting it wrong. Yes, especially when people think about art and drawing faces, they think, oh, that nose is all wrong, or I've got to get these proportions right. And actually the wildest, most interesting drawers, whether it's like Tracy Emmin or Paul Arego, they are they are really expressive, you know. And so if we can tap into not caring about whether we're good or not, and if we can tap into paying to attention with with each other, then you've you're harnessing two really um really amazing feelings which help you feel alive. What is feelings?

Nick 10:00

What are two feelings?

SPEAKER_01 10:01

Being able to pay attention, yeah, and I can't do that, and having fun while you're in the process of drawing. I can do that. You can do that paying attention as hard.

Nick 10:16

Drawing faces is like the hardest thing as well.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

Not with sketchface.

Nick 10:19

Really?

SPEAKER_01 10:20

Can't do it wrong. You can't do it wrong.

Nick 10:22

I like like basically my creativity, I like to make people smile and laugh. Is it kind of alright to laugh at people's pictures?

SPEAKER_01 10:29

Well, you if you come to Sketchface or if you do any little exercises that we might even have a go at later on, they are it's you'll understand that there's a like you said, like we said earlier, you can feel vulnerable when you're drawing, and even you're vulnerable with your own inner voice, like the way you speak to yourself when you're doing anything creative is really important because if you're just constantly on your own back, then it makes you not want to do it. And if you don't do it, how can you get better at it or enjoy it?

Nick 10:57

Wow, yeah, you've got to enjoy the process.

SPEAKER_01 10:59

We all resist creativity because we look at the blank page and we think I can't start that because it's a really good idea. But what if it turns out and it's not good enough?

Lora 11:06

Yes, you question it.

SPEAKER_01 11:07

It's sort of like writing for the bin, yeah. Like you say, you write, I'm gonna do 25 quick pace drawings with a load of people that are all equally vulnerable and it's fun because it's quite it's to 90s music. You can't do it wrong.

Nick 11:21

Can you sorry, you you just said writing for the bin. What is writing for the bin?

SPEAKER_01 11:24

So when you're writing, you you don't want to write because you think, oh, it's not gonna turn out how my high expectations are. So if you're gonna write or draw, you just have the idea that it's just gonna go in the bin.

Nick 11:35

I love it. So it's like a man, it's like when they make the um mandalas out of sand or something. It's just it's just like a little exercise where you're just like, no one's ever gonna see this, it's just for me.

SPEAKER_01 11:45

One of the things I'm really interested in, and I still don't know if this really works with Sketchface or not, is um part of the process is that we all draw each other and we are we pose and pause for each other. So part of it is 50% actually drawing someone and 50% allowing someone to see you. So um the people that come to Sketchface also pose for everybody else to draw. It's no pressure you don't want to. Oh, I love that. But I always say in the session, I would say, who is going to go to bed tonight and think, I wish I'd stepped up, I wish I'd just sat on that chair and let people look at me. And um, one of the things that I'm really interested in um is we give each other the drawings at the end, so you don't go away with all of your drawings, you go away with you know 15 or 20 people's uh captures of you.

Nick 12:33

Oh, I love this.

Lora 12:34

Amazing.

Nick 12:34

Do you know what? Like, so I went to life drawing, right? And it was really good with Gareth at the um at the Channels of Theatre Studio, it was amazing. But I've got to say the model was far too good looking, and he was ripped and stuff like that, and it made me feel a bit uncomfortable. And then at the end there was like this crit session, but everyone sort of went round and it was quite serious. And I'd drawn him as a centaur because I because I messed it up, and then I thought I'll just turn him into a centaur, and it was kind of it was kind of alright to laugh, but no one sort of everyone was a bit like sort of moved moved on, and then it just made me feel because I didn't know everyone was gonna look at the pictures, yeah. Then it kind of made me feel really shit afterwards. Yeah, see, that's the feeling I don't want because I I kind of thought, oh, if I knew everyone was gonna look, I would have tried a bit harder or made it even sillier, or I don't know, it's just a bit weird. I felt really exposed, and some people that were really good at drawing as well, yes, and then I felt because I was a noob, I'd never done it before, and I was just I felt really, really exposed, I didn't like it. So I think like I'd much rather draw normal people, I think. But Gareth was amazing, he was a really good teacher. So I'm big up Gareth. I liked it, but it just wasn't my vibe. I want to do silly stuff, I wanted to I wanna do quicker stuff like Sketch Face, I want to try this. And in fact, Sangeeta, I did try it, I did try it because I was at I was at the Zine Fair organised by Elaine Tribley again, free previous guest, Fine Night Rebel, what amazing. And um Helen was there doing sketchface and we sat opposite each other and we we did this drawing exercise. So we're drawing each other, right? And and it was so weird like sitting opposite someone and looking at their face for like 60 seconds. You're not I mean, I don't like making eye contact because I'm autistic, but like to sit and look at someone for 60 seconds was quite scary for me. And it felt weird being looked at as well. And so um I was just like, wow, what a crazy experience. It's so nice to have a new, like a new feeling and a new experience. I think um Helen's gonna get us to draw. Do you want to get us to draw? I am did I I didn't do any spoilers there, did I?

Lora 14:35

No.

Nick 14:36

Good.

Lora 14:37

I was trying to say a big enough pencil.

Nick 14:40

Yeah. Well, I don't know about this this pencil. So basically, Sangita, I'm gonna put your mascara on right now with this pencil.

Lora 14:48

Do it. I am low on the makeup.

Nick 14:51

I love this. This big pencil's amazing, isn't it?

Lora 14:53

Can I just ask? Because you are a creative, did you make that?

SPEAKER_01 14:56

No, I didn't. I did mend it because it went a bit flaccid. Because this is when people are um sorry, about the mic thing there.

Nick 15:04

It turned from an 8H into a yeah, 8B pencil joke.

SPEAKER_01 15:10

Very good, very sharp. Thank you. Sorry. Oh, see, I love this. So when you're posing, so if you've never done it before, um, we call this the um attachment objects. It means you can sit with something on your lap and you can feel relaxed, but it got cuddled quite a lot last year.

Nick 15:29

Well, it's like an is it like an emotional support pencil?

SPEAKER_01 15:32

I love that.

Nick 15:33

I love that pencil.

SPEAKER_01 15:34

So you can just sit with it on your lap and you can find something emotional. So you can keep talking. Oh, sorry. Um, yeah, so do you trust me to look after you if we do a little drawing exercise? Oh, you do.

Lora 15:49

Yeah, I do. Right.

SPEAKER_01 15:50

Sangeta.

Lora 15:51

If I'm gonna get it wrong, it's gonna be a when was you guys? Oh, yeah, because you said.

Nick 15:55

Sangeta, when was the last time you drew anything? Oh god. I don't know. Long time. Long time.

SPEAKER_02 16:04

Long, long, long, long time.

Nick 16:06

You know, does it does it feel like you know, because I think a lot of people don't draw really after they've done art classes at school, you know? That's right. They probably don't sit down and draw anything or think like, oh, this is something I can do.

SPEAKER_01 16:16

Yeah, no, agreed. Don't get me going on art in school, you know. Like, it's just it's just transcribing. They have to write two. Oh, really? What like copying stuff? Yeah, it's like two uh write two A4 pages about this, and I'm like, why are we writing about it? Or copy this and then make it a bit your own, but not too much, because then it won't look like that artist. Yeah, yeah. And he is just literally getting kids to think about ideas. That's right, you know. Art is ideas, you know. Number one, you've got to have ideas, and he's growing all these ideas with these kids, and it's so fantastic. I love it.

Nick 16:58

So it's not really as who can replicate real life the best. Yeah, you know, like these photorealistic drawings. I mean, that's amazing as well. Like all that, what is it? Richter, is it Richter or something? What's the guy called? Max Richter. Hey, it's Nicopedia. It wasn't Max Richter, he's a piano player. It was Gerard Richter. Gerard. Gerard? Gerard Richter. You know, the photo real paintings and drawings and stuff, but really, yeah, a lot of people think that's what art is. It's just doing a pretty watercolour or something.

SPEAKER_01 17:31

Yes.

Nick 17:32

I like the vibes.

SPEAKER_01 17:33

Oh mate.

Nick 17:33

I like art that makes me laugh or gets me excited.

SPEAKER_01 17:36

Okay.

Nick 17:36

Silly stuff.

Lora 17:37

So this is I'm looking forward to this. So I have a pink. Oh, hang on.

Nick 17:40

I need to explain what because we've got audio listeners. Basically, Helen has now just passed me and Sangita two clip with clipboard each, and it's got an A6 little bit of card on the clipboard. I think I'm being passed a pen here.

Sangita 17:53

Yeah.

Nick 17:53

Okay, so this is exciting. We've both got we've both got a um a clipboard. And a pen and a and a uh and a little A6 card. I imagine there's gonna be some sort of drawing exercise.

SPEAKER_01 18:05

Oh, I just need to get my timer.

Nick 18:07

Oh, Helen and Helen has got Helen's got Helen's got a really big pencil with her. I don't know what's going on. The emotional support pencils here. I think that me and Sangita will both need it. Yeah, you both in the middle. So, so right, I think Helen's gonna give us the emotional support pencil to whoever needs it the most after this exercise. What are we doing, Helen?

SPEAKER_01 18:28

So we are gonna draw together. Um, there's only two.

Nick 18:31

Are you drawing as well?

SPEAKER_01 18:32

No, you two are drawing each other.

Nick 18:34

Oh my god.

SPEAKER_01 18:34

Oh my god, each other! Yeah. Oh, Nick Donna hate me.

Nick 18:38

Sankita, contrast. Sankita, shall I take my hat off so it's just like drawing an egg?

SPEAKER_01 18:43

No, listen, I'm still gonna get it.

Nick 18:44

It's just like an egg with a beard. It's easier.

SPEAKER_01 18:46

I promise it won't be a good drawing. It's gonna be almost terrible. So you don't have to do it.

Lora 18:51

I can promise that, yep.

SPEAKER_01 18:52

So there's two rules. One, you've got to use a continuous line. That means you put your pen on the paper and it doesn't come off. Okay.

Nick 19:01

With with our normal drawing hand, is it?

SPEAKER_01 19:03

With a normal drawing hand. And the second is that you never look at the paper and you look at the person. Oh, but what if I get it on your board?

Lora 19:12

Oh, okay.

Nick 19:12

So, Sangita, we are gonna actually I'm gonna say to Adam, can you check Sangita's eyes, make sure she doesn't look down, please? Because we we need we need a referee.

SPEAKER_01 19:20

Can't you?

Nick 19:21

Yeah, what okay?

Lora 19:22

Can I just get my bearings? Tell me what to do.

SPEAKER_01 19:24

Look at Nick's face and think, where am I gonna start?

Nick 19:27

My beautiful face.

SPEAKER_01 19:28

And then put your pen on a place on the paper.

Nick 19:33

Sangita, I really apologize in advance.

SPEAKER_01 19:35

Me too, right? This is gonna take 60 seconds.

Nick 19:37

I really hope I don't do your dirty.

SPEAKER_01 19:39

Usually play music, but I'm sure Nick will talk us through it. Just sing, sing. Okay.

Nick 19:45

So so Helen's about to start the stopwatch now. It's 60 seconds, do you say? Yeah. Oh my god. Alright, so I'm gonna talk more through my process. I'm just starting, I'm finding a place on the page with my pen.

Lora 19:58

Do we start now? And I'm starting.

Nick 20:00

And I'm I'm drawing the outline of Sangita's head, which is a beautiful, beautiful thing. Now I'm gonna go down and I'm not taking my pen off the paper, drawing her eyes in now. It's beautiful. Sangita's eyes. Oh, yeah. Sangita. Oh no. I feel like because I'm doing a continuous line, I feel like I'm more like drawing glasses because I've had to do a bit over the bridge. There's Sangita's nose. Coming in here, drawing Sangita's nose, Sangita. I really hope I haven't, I'm not gonna insult you with this picture.

Lora 20:25

That's how I feel. I'm doing your eyebrows now. I can get over it, but can you get over me?

Nick 20:29

Yeah, yeah, big time.

Lora 20:30

Are you gonna thank me after this?

Nick 20:32

I feel like I feel like my um oh no, I just did spiky teeth for Sangita. I'm really sorry. That's alright, that's alright. I'm gonna go and do your headphones now. I felt like I went off the page.

Lora 20:42

Me too.

Nick 20:43

Um, so I don't know. I think you might have a headphone on your eye now. On my thing, we'll see in the reveal. And I'm gonna do a little v-neck for your top. I'll do some leopard skin. Okay, three. Leopard skin, some more leopard skin, and your shoulder. Stop. Here we go. Let's have a look.

SPEAKER_02 21:01

No, mate. My your beard is on your body.

Nick 21:04

My my Sagita, can I do a reveal for you? Please for your reaction. I've I don't think you could show this to a single person in the world and then say that is Sagita.

SPEAKER_02 21:16

Oh, brilliant. That's my brain. Yeah. Definitely my brain.

Nick 21:21

I mean, it does a bit look a bit like a barbershop floor, I think, as well.

Lora 21:25

That's okay. Well, I'm really grateful.

Nick 21:28

Um, but I've I've I think it's captured your energy. It does look a bit like ET playing uh playing a Super Nintendo.

Lora 21:34

I'm gonna actually say after this exercise, now that I've seen what Nick's created as a creative director, I didn't do too bad.

Nick 21:43

All right, let's have a look at yours. There's no scores anyway. I know that, I know.

Lora 21:46

But I feel good if I'm trying to say.

Nick 21:48

I feel like the score is how much fun you've had as well. Which and you were you were loving that as well.

Lora 21:53

I was nervous in the beginning. So for now, my reveal.

Nick 21:56

Alright, let's have a look.

Lora 21:57

Do oh my do you know?

Nick 22:00

That is genuinely strange.

Lora 22:01

How is good is that? That's true. Do you know the beard? Yeah.

Nick 22:05

Do you know what yours looks like? It looks like Quentin Blake. It looks like a character like in George's Marvellous Medicine when he give his give his Nan the medicine and her beard would sprout and stuff.

Lora 22:15

There you go. That's so cool.

Nick 22:17

Thank you for making my neck look so elegant.

Lora 22:19

That's okay. Your beard is just um down to your neck, which if you grow it a little bit more like Father Christmas by December, it would be didn't.

Nick 22:27

Oh, you've done a little baseball cap on there as well.

Lora 22:29

I tried.

Nick 22:29

And Elay, is that my ears or glasses? So that's awesome. It's really hard drawing without taking the pen off, isn't it?

Lora 22:36

It's hard drawing without taking the pen off. It's hard not looking at what you're drawing. But this 60-second thing was so much fun. It gives you forget out clause. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Sketch face. Often we draw with a non-dominant hand as well. Because you can't, you know, you don't have to do it properly then. So I love that. You did something really amazing there that you paid um it was funny and unexpected, which often we don't do when we're being creative, because we're trying to control the outcomes.

SPEAKER_02 23:06

We are.

SPEAKER_01 23:07

And it's evidence that you were looking at each other and paying attention to each other. And one of the things that I think is really hard about creativity is being able to pay sustained attention to each other when there's so much distraction.

Nick 23:19

So now, Sankita, I'm gonna pass you my I'm gonna pass you my sketch, okay? Yes. So I have two Nicks. I have signed this.

unknown 23:27

You have.

Nick 23:28

So um in the future, I haven't got a certificate of authenticity for it, but I think if they analyse my handwriting, let me know this is an original Nick Hearn and uh maybe you can sell it to a museum.

Lora 23:39

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 23:40

Or you can just put it on your fridge.

Nick 23:42

Or you can put it in the bin, because we're talking about drawing for the bin as well, but um I do like this, it's got some it's got some fun energy to it.

Lora 23:51

There we go.

SPEAKER_01 23:51

There's a little moment in time where you drew and they paid attention to each other, and I think that's quite a big deal.

Lora 23:58

This is the bit where I want to be a sport brat, and I don't want to give this to you because actually I think it's so good I'd like to go and put it on my fridge. No, I'm joking. You may have it. It's lovely. I love it.

Nick 24:08

Thank you very much, Sangita. That was 60 seconds. How long does the sketch face session last? How many of these exercises do you do?

SPEAKER_01 24:17

Usually we draw for about an hour, but people love to mingle at the end. Because at the end we swap the portraits, um, so you'll find each other and say, Oh, here's your portrait. And so um, really, people would go on doing that forever.

Nick 24:32

But has anyone ever hooked up uh because we read my mind? Yeah, because it because it because it feels like this is like this would be such a great speed dating thing.

SPEAKER_01 24:41

Well, actually, someone said that to me last week. They said, Would you do a speed dating thing? I said, Well, you've got to be pretty courageous, haven't you? To you know, if you were saying you were already a bit anxious about drawing and then you've got to draw with someone, but then we said, Well, you would actually find your people quite quickly, couldn't you? Because whoever's turned up there is a like-minded spirit, aren't they? Absolutely.

Nick 25:01

And you can also see how thin someone's skin is because if you draw them and then they're really offended, you're saying, nah. Yeah, don't want to. You want the you want the person that's gonna like absolutely laugh their ass off at your thing.

SPEAKER_02 25:12

Oh, that was a brilliant.

Nick 25:14

Also, like sitting opposite someone for 60 seconds staring at them is quite a good way of like sort of um getting to know getting to know them.

SPEAKER_01 25:20

Yeah, and I just want to um sketchface is not about emotion um creative forwarding. It's not about hooking up.

Nick 25:26

Guys, it's all about hooking up.

SPEAKER_01 25:28

This idea does come from a global portrait um project with um a girl called Wendy McNaughton. Um, so you can find her, um, and she she has been doing this in America for lots of years, and um I'm trying to make it a revolution in terms of it.

Nick 25:43

So Wendy McNaughton. Yeah. And is her thing called Sketchface, or is that your own brand for it?

SPEAKER_01 25:48

Sketchface is my reinvention. I love it. But the draw together strangers thing, which is the thing that I'll you often see me all around doing, like popping up here and there, because I feel like it's a really it's a really it's one minute of your life to actually connect with somebody in a really fun way, and that really does stand for a lot of the principles that Sketchface are trying to spread across Chelmsford. Because I used to go up to London and um we ran pop-ups in um Shoreditch and Tottenham Court Road and Hoxton, and I kept thinking, why do I keep having to go to London to do this? Like I know, take it to where the people need it. I want to do it in Chelmsford.

Nick 26:25

London's creative enough, yeah. You know, yeah. So I I love this, and I feel like um, it might be a really, really fun thing to like tag someone in, you know, like some, you know, you stay on for two drawings, right? Tag someone in, keep just keep the chain going. How many people do you think we could get in a bit in a chain?

SPEAKER_01 26:42

Oh, well, if you write, do you mean like if you write hashtag draw together strangers, then you'll be part of that global portrait project.

Nick 26:49

Oh no, I mean I just sat on a table. You know they've got the you know they've got the chess benches now, they've got the new chess tables in in the park. I'm just I just want to go and sit there one day and see who turns up for a game of chess. Yeah, but you can have a sketchface table. Yeah, just see who turns up.

SPEAKER_01 27:02

Yeah, I'd love to do that. Well, I've done sketchface street before. Yes, uh, that's right.

Nick 27:06

Just grab people from the street and actually Do you think like people like get like recruited and then because I'm now I want to go to Sketchfactor?

SPEAKER_01 27:12

I'm coming, I'm gonna go to that's why I'm calling it a cultural um cultural drawing movement. Hang on because it isn't about one thing, it's about a revolution where we can draw and not feel terrified.

Nick 27:25

I feel like this is like drawing Scientology. We're gonna go there and then Helen's gonna get us to sign up to the next level and the next level, and before we know we're invested.

Lora 27:33

I think I'm at the next level.

Nick 27:35

I'm proud of my drawing. We're paying a thousand pounds to get the next race room, and you're locked in, you're gonna unlock the next level.

SPEAKER_01 27:41

We usually talk about the cult this early on, but you know, how you brought it up.

Nick 27:44

This Kool-Aid tastes really weird. What have you been? What did you put in it? But I love but I I would love that. It's such a great way of recruiting people and getting them excited, and also to make them remember like the joy of creativity and the joy of drawing that they might have forgotten. Yeah. So what reactions have you had um, you know, from people like you sit down and they're like, oh, oh, I don't draw, no, don't get me drawing. I'm rubbish at drawing.

SPEAKER_01 28:06

And everybody says they're rubbish at drawing, and everybody's bringing such a massive dose of their history of whether I'm good at drawing or not. And actually, often the people that are good at drawing are so controlled in what they're doing that even they require a little bit of liberation. So, really, like all good ideas they come from something that you've personally experienced. And I um I've got like a history in arts and stuff like that, but I was so tired of being myself up trying to be good or trying to master something, and I thought, what is the point in doing this if I can't enjoy it? Yeah, if I'm talking to myself like this, oh, this is really shit drawing, or like, what if this is any good, or I'll do that later because then I'll have more energy. And and I thought I've got to find the fun in it because I know it is so powerful, and every time I draw in my whole life, I've always felt better. Yeah, so if I'm stopping drawing because I think I have to be good at it, or if I think it's got to be a certain way, then I'm losing all of that creative force that comes from being expressive, or the fact that I'm me. And when we draw together at Sketchface, what I love is everybody gets to draw in a way that is them, not about being good. So that process and power from creativity is allowed to be free because I set it up so you you can't really control it that much.

Lora 29:25

How long have you been running Sketchface?

SPEAKER_01 29:27

Oh well, this is the first the first proper launches this year. Oh wow, okay. So I've been collaborating with other groups for a long while, and I've got a history in education and things, but um actually this is the first year that I've been courageous enough to go to just launch it well, push the brand out and get exactly that's so good though, but it it feels like something that I've seen around so much now.

Nick 29:49

You're doing such a good job on promo.

SPEAKER_01 29:51

Oh, thanks.

Nick 29:52

No, no, but you know, when I've seen your events and stuff, it feels like it's a thing. Yeah, it's a thing already.

SPEAKER_01 29:57

I do really believe in it, and I think hopefully that comes across, you know. Like, and one of the things about creativity is that um I've sort of learned that it's all of it, it's all of our lives, like it's not just one thing. And if you're I kept waiting, like, what if I'm not good enough at it yet? What if I don't really know how to do this? Or what if I book a venue and then nobody comes, you know, that absolutely terrifies me. Um, but if you wait to be in the right position, you'll never really be able to live in.

Nick 30:27

Our last guest with a name that I is unrepeatable said basically the best way to do it, do anything is to book something in and then work it out. And then just go. And so is that what you did? You're just like, well, I'm gonna book it in. Well, what if no one turns up and then suddenly everyone turns up and they had a great time?

SPEAKER_01 30:40

My other mantra is what you're gonna do, not do it. Yes, yeah, because you can go through all of the things like if I do that, what if I lose money, or what if this happens, or what if I all falls, you know, flat. Um and actually at some point you probably are gonna do it, so you might as well just get on and do it. Just do it. And it's the same with drawing, you know, like if you've got an idea or if you've got a something that you'd like to try, just do it, you know, because it all adds up. So all of it comes together to actually be the thing that is meant to be in the end, but you actually have to do it.

Nick 31:11

Yes, you have to start. But also, you find side quests along the way, do you? And when you're doing stuff, because for me, I'll never do the thing that I'm supposed to be doing, yeah. So it's always good to have something to do, and then I'll be like, oh, I'll find this little side quest. I have a really good creative idea. I love it. Yeah, do you know what? Like I've evangelized about this before, but I went to the Museum of Art Brute in um Lucerne in Switzerland, I think that's how you say the place name, and it's so good to see art done by people who have no artistic ambition or any artistic knowledge that are just expressing themselves totally freely with no goal at all. And it's really difficult, isn't it? Because as a creative, you get all this thing locked in your head of how you want things to turn out, or you know, you can't help but try to emulate someone or think, oh, I'm gonna take a bit from that and that or whatever. Oh my god, just to get back to the joy of like mark making and uh and freedom and oh I love it, I love it. Do you ever do drawing in the dark? Can that be really fun? Oh yeah, that would be good. You know, like that restaurant, Don Lenoir, where they go, where they go. Do you see me? I went in front of you, Don Lenoir. You know, when they when they that restaurant where you eat in the dark, I would do that.

SPEAKER_01 32:23

Um I'd like the drawing in the dark.

Nick 32:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Drawing in the dark would be really fun, wouldn't it? I think it would. Oh my god, can you imagine that? And then um Helen would be there with her night vision goggles walking around looking at what everyone's saying, make sure no one's drawing on people's faces and stuff. Helen, I saw that that you draw on the floor in your artistic practice. That is nuts. I'm really worried about your back.

SPEAKER_01 32:43

I'm really worried about my knees recently. My back's been fine, my knees have been recently.

Nick 32:50

What why why did you start drawing on the floor?

SPEAKER_01 32:52

Well, it started because I had um, you know, we're talking about Gareth. So I had a solo show in Gareth's um gallery, and I had my easel up there like to uh promote some stuff. So I thought, oh no, my easel's at the gallery. Oh, well, at art college I used to draw on the floor all the time, and it is quite normal.

Nick 33:10

So you were you were doing all your art on the easel.

SPEAKER_01 33:12

Yeah, and then I was really knackered as well, and I just thought this feels good. Yeah, that's that literally was about three years ago, and I haven't got up since. Oh, I love it.

Nick 33:22

Do you do you fight feel like I find like an easel quite intimidating, right? And it feels quite proper. It's like, oh look at me. Feel like you should have like a palette on your hand, one of those old fashioned ones. Yeah, that's right. You know, like the emoji palette, yeah, and a beret and a beret and stuff. And actually, yeah, you know, like yeah, I think it's hard to get locked in. Yeah, like really get in the zone. Like so, when you're on the floor, you just feel like totally chill and free.

SPEAKER_01 33:43

I love I love drawing on the floor because you get a different perspective as well. So, again, it's disruption. Like a lot of the things that um I do with my own drawing practice is about disrupting habits because it's so boring. Like the minute I do a good drawing, I am absolutely bored stiff of it. Sorry, listeners.

Nick 34:00

Helen just did air quotes for good. No, no, no, air quotes good drawing.

SPEAKER_01 34:05

Yeah, sorry, so as soon as you do a good drawing, no, like something that's really uh predictable. I'm not interested in it, I'm interested in a fresh take. Like, what do I want to say? And how can I say it in a way that's actually really interesting? What's expressive about it? And so when you draw from the floor, all of your perspective is disrupted because it isn't how you'd usually see it because you're looking atwards, that's right. It's another way to make it weird and interesting.

Nick 34:31

Do all your characters turn up really tall and skinny or something like that? Because you're like, you know, because of the perspective of the paper. Oh, well it's like when you do those secret messages on uh you know the long let the long letters at school that you can tilt.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

The other thing that is that um is quite a good helpful thing to get out of your own way is um I use a roll of lining paper from BQ. Oh yeah. Because then you're like every time you try and use the posh paper, you're really intimidated. She thinks this has definitely got to be you may have got to have value in this piece of work because this costs so much money.

Nick 35:02

This is acid-free linen paper, it's archival quality for like 1,000 years. So yeah, when they put my picture in the museum, yeah. No, there's too much pressure, isn't there?

SPEAKER_01 35:12

Yeah. So I have a big roll of lining paper, and when I go to life drawing, I sit on the floor, roll that out, and then once that's finished, I usually have a big fire every year for most of my stuff.

Nick 35:23

Oh, that's quite cathartic.

Lora 35:25

Yeah. Wow.

Nick 35:26

Not very environmentally environmentally friendly, though. Unless you're making unless you're making homemade charcoal.

SPEAKER_01 35:32

Oh yeah, I do that as well.

Nick 35:33

Yeah, yeah. Okay, that's right. Helen, Helen likes to make her own charcoal. Yeah. That must that must be quite cathartic. I mean, it's it I I threw away all my pictures at the end of Gareth's life drawing thing, and someone was like, Don't you want to keep them? I was just like, No.

Sangita 35:48

Yeah.

Nick 35:48

It was just nice doing them. I like the process, but I I I certainly don't want them to remind me of my inadequacy in life drawing.

SPEAKER_01 35:55

I love that because creativity is definitely a process. Like and if you can lean into process over outcome, then you you can find the joy in it. And as I said, it's been my life's ambition to stop terrifying myself and actually just enjoy it because I am I always do feel better afterwards. And so the process is the key, isn't it? It's just how we how we stay in the process and stop worrying about what it's going to look like afterwards.

Nick 36:22

What art what art do you think makes you feel the best?

SPEAKER_01 36:24

I like drawing faces. Really? Oh wow.

Nick 36:27

I like making stuff with plasticine. Or like blue tack or something. Just get get totally in the zone.

Sangita 36:33

Yeah.

Nick 36:33

Just do that. Do that for hours. Until it loses all its structure and then it turns into this weird, like, sticky blobby mess. Well, you say, Gator.

Lora 36:42

Um, do you know what? This was my first time pen to paper in a very long time, and I can say I really did everything you said, I felt. I've I didn't feel I felt anxious at first because I was just like, oh my god, I'm gonna get it so wrong.

Nick 36:57

I mean, this is a pretty, pretty um elite face to draw. It's a lot of pressure, isn't it? It's a bit like drawing a bit like drawing David Attenborough or the king or something.

Lora 37:04

There was so much pressure because you are the creative director, and I didn't want to get it wrong. And actually, my picture is quite good. It's quite I feel very proud.

Nick 37:14

We will we will be putting these on Instagram so everyone can have a look at them. I like it, I really love it. It's really, really funny.

Lora 37:19

I'm really proud.

Nick 37:21

Me too, I am as well. I'm quite chuffed. I can put that, I can put that on my desk. I love that. Yeah, nice.

Lora 37:26

Thanks, Nick. And thank you, Helen, for introducing that idea. Like, this is brilliant. I'm coming to your sketch face, by the way. I need to meet a husband, so I'm coming over to sketch face.

Nick 37:35

Do you?

Lora 37:35

No, I just want to say that.

Nick 37:37

Not Natalie Fed is a hookup party.

SPEAKER_02 37:39

Well, you know, it's kind of driving me that way.

Nick 37:42

Like I have an app soon, like sketch right, sketch left.

Lora 37:46

That's the one.

Nick 37:49

Oh my god, so um me and my kids play this game, and my wife as well, so she's very creative as well. But we play this game called Six Second Scribbles, which uh is really oh, it's mad. Like, you know, you think like the pressure of that drawing in 60 seconds, six second scribbles, you get ten things that you have to draw in a minute. Oh my god, it's like it's like a little fun game to play around the table, and then you have to guess what you've each drawn, and you get you get points for guessing the right ones, and you get points if someone guesses it. So good. Like there'll be like 10 films, it'll be like Jaws, Star Wars, you know, Raves of the Lost Ark and stuff. And like to be able to draw that in like six seconds is so fun. Everything goes out the window. Like for like talent of drawing, it's being able to communicate an idea in the quickest possible amount of time. They say I'm cheating because I I am the best at it in the house.

Lora 38:34

I was gonna ask, but then I thought that's what you must do.

Nick 38:38

Leo say I'm cheating. Daddy, how did you manage to draw 10 pictures in in a minute and everyone know who what they are? It's so difficult. Have you got to draw an orange and a grapefruit?

Lora 38:49

Yeah, how do you get the difference between an orange and a grapefruit? That's true.

Nick 38:53

How do you get the difference? It's in black and white, it's in pencil. It's difficult, isn't it? Do you think you're gonna be able to do that? I like doing a leaf. No, I'm not the best drawer, I'm the best communicator in in drawing. Okay.

SPEAKER_01 39:06

It's not that they can really they really guess what you're thinking.

Nick 39:09

No, I have to draw storyboards at work and I have to do it really quickly, so it's like you know, like when you're doing storyboard, it's just like what's the most efficient way you can communicate something? Stick man, arrows for movement. I love it. And do you draw?

SPEAKER_01 39:21

Do you really draw still? You don't use a computer, do you really draw it?

Nick 39:25

Oh, storyboards, yeah, I always draw them.

SPEAKER_01 39:27

Oh, I love that.

Nick 39:28

Yeah. But it's it's like it's you they don't need to be works of art. And I think when you start off, you get you get really hung up on everything, every frame having to look really good. But really, you just need to get the emotion across. I can show you what I can show you one later. Yeah, I'd love to see that. But it's really fun, I just like like doing it. And then actually, when you see the video that comes out and it's like, oh yeah, that is actually that. Yeah, it's quite mad.

SPEAKER_01 39:49

Have you seen the um Wallace and Gromit exhibition? Uh it's at the uh Kids VA in Basin of Green, and the storyboard drawings of that are so lovely. Oh, it's like you can see real, you know, you can see all the pencil marks and stuff. Oh, yeah, there's so much feeling in it.

Nick 40:06

If you're doing it for a film, you're gonna do it properly. But when you're doing it for a silly music video, or something like that.

SPEAKER_01 40:10

Oh no, there's all sorts of like note-taking, it's a real um just like there's a a case where you can just see inside the minds of everybody putting it together, but you can see Wallace and Gromit growing in it, you know, just from all the little notes.

Nick 40:24

It's not really formal fancies, and you can see little visual gags starting and things like that, and you'd be like Wallace's eyebrow moves up a little bit.

SPEAKER_01 40:33

I love that. There's a bit where they've got all of the eyes and all of the expressions, and it's just all separate like that. It's really but this is what it is as well.

Nick 40:41

It's like the communication of an idea rather than actually creating a piece of art. And that's not storyboards, should do that and be really quick to understand. Yeah, some people's storyboards are amazing. Key art and stuff. I mean, imagine you can draw turn up to um the Mandalorian with some stick men and show them the Star Wars people that I don't know. Why did I say Mandalorian?

Sangita 41:02

I don't know.

Nick 41:03

Very weird. So earlier on you said you you did some art psychotherapy. I can't say it. Psychotherapy. Art psychotherapy. Art psychotherapy. What where did you how did you do art psychotherapy? What is it? I don't understand.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

Well, I'm probably not the best person to describe it because I didn't didn't finish it, but I started it.

Nick 41:26

I don't want to talk to a loser. I don't want to talk to a quitter. It basically turns out the course was going to be longer than 60 seconds. And Helen was like, I'm out, I'm out. No, what are you doing? What are you talking about for three years? I don't want to do a three-year thing.

SPEAKER_01 41:42

Um I started it, um, and then while I was I did a year's course, a year's course of it at Goldsmiths, and then um to carry on with my MA, I started working in a school, and I started working um at uh the Hayward School actually, yeah, in Chelmsford. And um I worked with such an amazing team there, and I didn't realise that teaching could be so creative and innovative. So you really had to understand how the children were thinking and what their motivations were in order to be able to communicate with them and get them to learn new things and have new information coming in.

Nick 42:19

And this was and it was all art, you were teaching art.

SPEAKER_01 42:22

No, this is what I was doing to start to um raise some funds to carry on with my MA at goals.

Nick 42:27

Oh, what were you teaching?

SPEAKER_01 42:28

It was uh for a special needs school. So I was working in an autism resource space and um the team that I was working with was so brilliant, and I thought, actually, I never thought teaching could be like this. You know, I'm not really I don't really want to sort of boss people around at the front of a class, but I do love getting under the skin of of why people behave the way that they do and what's how can they learn, and so I thought I did my PGCE for a year and thought I could carry on my art practice after that, and then the reality of uh teaching kicked in, and I stayed teaching for lots of years.

Nick 43:01

Oh, really? Well, you just don't just finish at three o'clock and then get to do what you want the rest of the day. I know what teaching is, yeah.

SPEAKER_01 43:10

Absolutely.

Nick 43:10

Oh, it's actually hard work, yeah. Preparing for lessons and all that, yeah. I know.

SPEAKER_01 43:14

And exhaustion, you've got nothing left in the tank at the end of the day. So now you understand why I'm tired.

Nick 43:20

But ru but rewarding.

SPEAKER_01 43:21

It was and uh all through my teaching career I stayed in teaching for a long while. I've always worked with such brilliant teams. It's the teams and their innovation that that keep you going. That's the thing.

Nick 43:33

So how so how did that lead into art psychotherapy?

SPEAKER_01 43:36

So I stuck when I stopped doing the I didn't go on to carry on with the MA because I thought actually there's quite a lot to do in education. Oh, really? So you stopped you stopped your fashion MA? No, I'd done my degree in fashion, I worked in fashion for quite a few years, and then that was like devil wear's Prada. I thought, um I work for some really good designers, and I thought I meant to be enjoying this. And this is so pretentious. And so I decided to do an MA in art psychotherapy. Then when I was trying to raise the funds for it, I worked with a in a school for children with autism, and then I ended up teaching for a lot of years, but with brilliant teams.

Nick 44:15

I feel like so I feel like all of this stuff is really coming together with Sketch Face. Yeah. Because for me it does feel a bit like uh psychotherapy. It does feel like a it's weird, it's like a mini counselling session, you know. Like, well, I had six little sixty-second counselling session with you.

SPEAKER_01 44:29

Yeah, I just think if you get people and creativity and process in a room together, like that is a really magic combination, you know. Actually, drawing for me is really therapeutic. Um, doing anything with your hands, you know, there's so much scientific research now about what it does for us when we get out of our brains and we do something creative with our hands. And so I think, yes, there's a lot of research and thought that's gone into building sketchface, but actually it's what happens in that room, which is completely unpredictable, but very safe and fun. That it's actually where it's all coming together, and that's what I think that's why it's always so fresh and exciting for me because actually, every single time we all get together, something magic happens, and you never know what that's going to be or how people are gonna feel at the end of it. But you know, I can I know I keep saying it's a big thing. Has anyone stormed out?

Nick 45:22

Has anyone stormed out yet?

SPEAKER_01 45:23

There was there was one man. That's not what I look like. No, there was one that one man that came to an artist to a session that I ran at Artists at the Meadows last year when I was doing like a soft sort of experiment to see how, see whether Chelmsford was really gonna be.

SPEAKER_02 45:40

Are you ready for me?

SPEAKER_01 45:41

If anyone was having to come basically, if I'm being honest, and this man came and I thought he doesn't look like he really wants to be here. And I but I do say no one's ever left halfway through. He survived. He stayed, he survived, and did he love it?

Nick 45:58

Was he a convert?

SPEAKER_01 45:59

He was laughing, he was laughing, but he was quite uncomfortable.

Nick 46:02

But you know, a lot of people I think I think some things, people's like partner might take them, or one of their friends might take them to something, and you'd be like, Oh, this is not for me.

SPEAKER_01 46:09

And then I think he thought it was a more formal tea tools structured portrait class. I don't think he realised I was gonna play, I don't know, I was gonna play Groove Armada and he was gonna have to draw to the length of our music track.

Nick 46:25

Well, I hope he went away and he had a good time and he thought, like, oh, I loved that, that was good.

SPEAKER_01 46:29

Yeah. Well, I said he was laughing and everyone's so supportive, you know. Like a lot of the Ignite events that I've been to, I'm introduced to something new that I've never heard of before. And the way that people the energy that's in the room by the end of one of those talks from another creative or somebody who's sharing their story is always is always changes you, doesn't it? It changes you for the better. And so I you know, he's got he's got a memory and a funny story, if nothing else.

Nick 46:56

Hell yeah. Remember that time we went and drew like weird scribbles and you totally messed up my beard.

SPEAKER_01 47:01

She wouldn't even let me look at the page.

Nick 47:03

You got um and do a lot of people come back for multiple sessions?

SPEAKER_01 47:07

Yeah, I mean, my one of my ambitions is that people come as part of a growing community. So um when I've run them, not in Chelmsford, you know, people come every week for six weeks, and you know, it's like looking forward to seeing your friends, and you realise that you can draw somebody hundreds of times, and actually you always see something different and you always express it in a different way.

Nick 47:30

Well, it's very hard to repeat the same motion when you're not looking as well, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 47:33

I mean, it's not all not looking, like, but some that that's one of the warm-up exercises that you do to try and get everybody to stop getting so stressed about all the things. But I um part of my daily practice is that I've drawn my own face for every morning for um probably about five years now. Wow.

Nick 47:56

What it always in the same medium or different medium?

SPEAKER_01 47:59

I'll just do whatever, and it's got to be really quick. I do one blind drawing um where I'm not looking and I'm just looking at myself. Yeah. That's like 30 seconds to a minute, and that can be brutal at five o'clock in the morning. But um, and then I'll do one quick sketch of whatever comes to hand.

Nick 48:16

And have you kept all these and archived them? Yeah, I have got them all. Amazing, they're all dated and archived.

SPEAKER_01 48:20

Oh, I'm not so good with numbers. So basically But you can tell because it's page after page.

Nick 48:26

Um so we could have a whole like Helen evolution of Helen exhibition.

SPEAKER_01 48:30

For real. Oh, I don't know.

Nick 48:32

The whole of those mornings are really uh Hello, um Tate Modern Turbine Yeah, the turbine hall's available 2029. We're gonna have it, we're gonna fill it with your pictures.

SPEAKER_01 48:43

Absolutely. But I'd love to encourage other people to do that because I think there's a lot of um a lot of movements which are about facing yourself or being honest with yourself, and I think actually looking at your face, all of its creases and the crunches from where you've laid on your side and the pillow, and actually coming to terms with the fact that's what my face looks like. It's a crumpled face. Like, but that when you draw people regularly, what you see is um I know it sounds cheesy, but it's really true. You see all of their beauty, you see all of their vulnerability, and you see all of their characters, and it really is a really good um counteraction. Is that a word? It is now it is now counteracts, it counteracts all of the messages that we get from social media about how we should look and that our faces all need to look the same or contoured, and you think oh, look at that great big worry line in the middle there, Helen. That's getting deeper, you know, and you actually try to accept it and draw it, and it is amazing how different you are every day, even when you're doing the same thing.

Nick 49:46

I feel based on um Sangeita's drawing of me, it's like a picture of Dorian Grey. And I and I I I I I feel there's been some bad things going on.

SPEAKER_01 49:53

Yeah.

Nick 49:54

I love it, Sangeita. I'm not dissing it, no, but it's like it's it's funny, isn't it?

SPEAKER_01 49:58

I'm really playful in that drawing. I love it, I love it so much. I think it really plays.

Lora 50:03

I'm so proud that I just did it.

Nick 50:05

Do you know what? I did a um I did a project uh two years ago when I I set my I like I like doing weird projects and setting parameters, and I decided for a whole year, the first photo booth I went past each day, I have to take a photo, you know, like the passport things or whatever. So you never know where it's going to be. I couldn't have a repeat in a week, you know, because Liverpool Street's hard otherwise. So like if I've been to one in a week, I couldn't go back to it, but it had to be the first one, no matter where I was, if I was late or anything. So I've got pretty much probably about 340 um photo booth photos of myself, and sometimes it might be like a Van Gogh studio on a on a pier or sorry. My kids were starting to be like, Don't tell daddy there's a there's a thing I'd go and and leading me in different ways because whoever's with me I do it as well. But it's really funny, especially doing it when you really don't want to do it, yeah. And it just and if you're late or you're in a really bad mood, and I'd write down what and I wrote down on the back what the situation was that day, and this and it was really fascinating because actually you think not much is gonna happen in a year, but so much happened in that year, and it's really funny looking back at the pictures and reading how I felt, how you doubled, what was happening in those days.

SPEAKER_01 51:12

Wow, it's an amazing project, yeah.

Nick 51:14

It's really good. Um but the thing is doing art's more fun than sorting out afterwards. So I meant to scan it all in and like you know, I was gonna do a really long, yeah, you know, big long photo of it and put it all on Instagram. Nah, it's just in a box.

SPEAKER_01 51:27

Said it out loud now. Yeah, make it out. Well no, it's wrong. It's there, it's in a box.

Nick 51:31

Yeah, someone can get it when I die. When I die, someone can get it and just look at it on a bit like in the museum. Why is there and his beard is slightly different lengths.

SPEAKER_01 51:42

Did you make a face? Like, did you make a face?

Nick 51:45

Oh well, no, no, this is the best thing because um usually it was whatever I was doing, and and I couldn't think about I just had to put money in and just go and sit in it. Yeah, and um, and it was ri the ones when I'm in a bad mood are so funny because I'm just sat there, like literally just looking in a bad mood. You know, I wasn't playing up for the camera because after you've done it, yeah, after you've done it 50 times, a hundred times, you're not no longer thinking like, oh, I'm gonna do like some wacky faces or anything. You're just literally like, I'm in a bad mood. Sometimes there's some that I'm just there on my phone, yeah, you know, just just doom scrolling or doom whatever. It's really funny. It um I think I had I had a cross on one day, and you know, he's just having like uh just it's just me eating my cross on.

Sangita 52:23

Yeah, stuff like that.

Nick 52:25

So it was fun, and then I'd have to explain to my wife why I was 10 minutes late, you know, sometimes and things like that. But it's really it's so interesting because in that year, you know, I got diagnosed as autistic, I got an email inviting my band to play this amazing festival we'd always wanted to play. So, you know, like I had things to like celebrate and and and life moments happening. I won uh some I'd won an award, and you know, I got the award and things like that. So it's it's just funny what you got with you.

SPEAKER_01 52:49

Yeah, the sort of trajectory of life, isn't it? All the waves of it, yeah. But actually, you're you're meeting yourself at that same moment, yeah. Yeah, but with whatever's going on around you.

Nick 52:59

Yeah, the one annoying one. Once the picture didn't come out, it went inside the machine. And I said to the bloke, can you open it up? I need to get this picture. And he's like, I can't, I can't. And I said, What happens to them? And he said, I just get destroyed. And I'm like, Oh sad.

Lora 53:12

Did you have to take another one? Or that was it? That was the moment gone.

Nick 53:14

That was it, it was gone. There was the rules. But yeah, I uh yeah, it's it was a fun, sorry to talk about it, but it's fun having like a whole year of like self-reflection. I've got that all documented. God, I'll go back another time and I'll think, Oh, I look so young. You know, like if you if you have a photo taken now or you get a drawing done now, you're like, oh my god, I look so old, and then you look at it in five years' time and you're like, I can't see that. So yeah, oh that guy's great looking, look at him. It's so true, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 53:42

So so true.

Nick 53:43

So this is this is fun, yeah. Nice. All right, sorry, that I just made that all about me for ten minutes. Uh the podcast just about me, anyway. You did the amazing series about hugs after COVID, right? Like I saw.

SPEAKER_02 54:01

Oh god, I love no, I love that.

Nick 54:03

Like but going back in time, yeah. And I thought that was really interesting as well because you know, obviously the sketch faced about human connection and things, and that was all about like the you know, coming back to human connection. It's quite a difficult thing to draw as well.

SPEAKER_01 54:17

Oh, it was so hard to draw. When you said human hugs, I sort of went, Oh no, you did you get a little shimmer? Come to terms with how do I draw a hug that's got a hug in it, you know, that isn't just oh, there's the five sausages for hands that are around like someone hugging King Charles. Yeah, but there were so many things on social media where people were being reunited. What what do I need to get out of my system? And it's the fact that like we need to be together, you know, we need to touch each other.

Nick 54:48

Where were you getting your hugs from? Well, they were people posing.

SPEAKER_01 54:52

I got took a lot of photographs of me and my son hugging.

Nick 54:55

Um and then that must feel funny now that your son's like grown up more as well, and you're like, Oh, look at my little mini mini-sun hug.

SPEAKER_01 55:03

And now he's like, No, and then the other one was like, I remember like holding my daughter's hand going to school. There's quite a lot of um those as well. That I don't really work from photographs, really, if I can help it, because as I said, I'm trying to get that sort of that genuine uh capture of what's happening for me with feelings in the moment.

Nick 55:22

Yeah, drawing for a photo, you can't get that vibe, can you? You can you can replicate what's there.

unknown 55:27

Yeah.

Nick 55:28

So weird. I sometimes think about this, like you know, when I look at the Heywain and stuff like that. Yeah, and you know, he's amazing constable fiction, you think like, my god, how did he like hold all that in his head and like think about the light and the movement and you know, like the clouds and the trees and everything?

SPEAKER_01 55:42

Yeah.

Nick 55:43

Blows my mind. He couldn't take a photo.

SPEAKER_01 55:45

I think it's intuition, isn't it? It's like I again, like his art practice would have been like every single day. His drawings, sketchbooks are amazing, they're so uh full of life, and they're not full of all the detail, they're just full of him sort of absorbing what he can see, noting it as a note, and then going away and trying to create that with paint, capturing the vibe as quickly as he can, and then bringing do you think it's like a beautiful mind? He's got all these pages all around his canvas, and he's like just yeah, but it goes back to the paying attention, like when when you two were like looking at each other, it's just so unusual to do that. You know, our attention is so scattered that actually to go and sit in front of the sea or to go and draw a tree, like I tried to draw a tree last year, and it absolutely sent me over the edge because I my brain was going, I've got all these leaves, you know, so aggressive to myself, and I just thought it is a tree.

Nick 56:41

Yeah, draw a tree, just make it easy. I'll just draw a horse next to a tree.

SPEAKER_01 56:49

Where do you host Getchupice? Um, well, I'm hosting them at Patch. Hey!

Nick 56:54

Oh, we like Patch me and me and Sangeeta interviewed uh Steve Lamac, MB Eda.

Lora 56:59

We did. Actually, that's where we met too. Wasn't it really?

Nick 57:03

Oh, yeah, that's where we fell in love. Our eyes met our eyes met over the bar. No, but it's true, like this is this is where I fell in love with Sangita, and I was like, Oh my god, this is one of my favourite people I've ever met in my life. Ditto.

SPEAKER_01 57:15

Was it her laugh?

Nick 57:16

Huh?

SPEAKER_01 57:17

Was it her laugh?

Nick 57:18

Just general banter. It's it's really hard finding someone that can keep up with me. Yeah, and and like Sangeeta was just like there, she was there, like giving it as good as you know, giving it back. It was so good. And we were laughing so much, and then it was like kind of you know, when everyone else in the whole room just disappears and just melts away, and we're just like, oh no, it's just me and Sangeeta.

Lora 57:37

It was good banter, and those ignite like those things that at Patch where we started, yeah. Um, I think they're absolutely priceless, you know, just to meet people, meet creatives like yourselves. Um, I think that's brilliant. So you host them at Patch.

SPEAKER_01 57:51

So I'll host them at Patch. The next one's on the 3rd of June and the 1st of July, and those are the evening ones, which are 6 till 7:30.

SPEAKER_02 57:59

Naked Letter Naked sections.

SPEAKER_01 58:04

You wish you had off. And then big shout out to Jenna, Artist at the Meadows. Yes, Jen, Jen! Supportive when I felt really unsure a couple of years ago, and I was like, I don't know if I can do it in Chelmsford. She's like, just do it, I'll help you. And so we're starting um a series of um workshops there.

Lora 58:26

I'm going to the evening ones, I will go to the evening.

Nick 58:28

Yeah, what the naked ones.

SPEAKER_01 58:31

Whatever it is, just I'll just want to go and draw the thing. Leave your clothes at the door. If we can get enough people for the speed dating, I've got a venue.

Nick 58:38

Yeah? Really? For sketch based speed dating?

SPEAKER_01 58:41

Oh, but I'm too. It might just be only females then. I wouldn't be confident to get singles to come, but I'll host it if we if we can get enough. I can find some singles for you. Enough people that would be up for it.

Nick 58:54

Just do it. Let's do it. Let's do it. Let's recruit on Saturday. I'm gonna be I'm gonna be at this street party on Saturday. So Alright, let's go recruiting. I'll be there.

Lora 59:02

Yeah, let's do it.

Nick 59:03

Sketchy face. That's me. Go ahead and recruit singles.

Lora 59:07

I love that.

Nick 59:14

I really enjoyed drawing tonight. I really enjoyed drawing. Let me see your pic. Let me see my picture again. I could tell. He really enjoyed doing this. It looks like big hero six. Um, but I love my picture as well. Thank you so much. And we are both going to go to Sketchface. Helen Girling, where can we follow Sketchface on Instagram?

SPEAKER_01 59:36

At Sketchface underscore Champsford.

Nick 59:40

Who's got sketchface? Let's go to war. Let's get off of it. At Sketchface underscore Champsford.

SPEAKER_01 59:47

When it happens, I thought that is destiny because I really want Chelmsford up there. I want to put Champsford as Champsford. Not just Sketchface, it's sketchface Champsford.

Nick 59:57

We're going to grow it into the we're going to go and find whoever who's got sketchface. Then the globe, yeah. Yeah. We're going to take this on Dragon's Den.

Lora 1:00:06

Yes.

Nick 1:00:07

Dragon's pen.

Lora 1:00:08

Oh, let's do it. Let's do it.

Nick 1:00:09

Um, we're going to come along to Sketchface. Oh my god. I want to go home and do more drawing. I love like I'm going to go and do drawing in the dark actually when I get home.

Lora 1:00:18

That's a good idea.

Nick 1:00:19

Self-portrait in the dark.

Lora 1:00:21

I might try that.

Nick 1:00:21

Yeah, and then Yannica's going to be like, why have you got Sharpie all over the house?

SPEAKER_02 1:00:25

Why are you bringing a Sharpie to bed?

Nick 1:00:28

Yeah, I'll just Yannica, I'll just do a portrait of you. That'd be really flattering. Yeah. You can follow us at r.u.creative.podcast. Thank you to Adam at Lawker Media Studios. Legend. He is. He's been a bit quiet today. I'm worried about him. Is he falling asleep?

Lora 1:00:44

No, you're like, even legends get tired.

Nick 1:00:46

Is he breathing? Is he breathing? He's breathing. He's alright. He's alright. Check his vitals.

Lora 1:00:50

Thank you, Sagator.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:52

Thank you, Nick.

Nick 1:00:53

Oh, always a pleasure. Thank you, Helen Girling. Yeah, yeah. Is there is there a sketch face sign-off? What do you say? Three, two, one, everyone, sketch your faces. What do you say? What do you say when you start a thing?

unknown 1:01:07

I don't know.

Nick 1:01:08

In development, yo, let's get sketchy with it. What'd you say?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:12

Just the music. The music.

Nick 1:01:15

What's your big pen's catchphrase?

SPEAKER_01 1:01:17

I don't know. I've said you're just going to be able to do that. What's his name now?

Nick 1:01:19

What's the big pen's name? Big pencil's name.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:21

She hasn't got a name.

Nick 1:01:23

Penny. Can we try out?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:26

All right. Christine Penny.

Nick 1:01:29

I love it.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:36

I like it.

Nick 1:01:37

Pencilillian. I don't know. Whatever. I'm going to stop recording now.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:42

Leave us on a cliffhanger. Big pencil.

Nick 1:01:45

We are on a cliffhanger. Big pencil. Come find us.

SPEAKER_01 1:01:47

Name this pencil. Oh, yeah.

Nick 1:01:50

Yeah, please listen. Let's just send in your requests. Uh for the names for it. Big pencil. We'll name it. We'll smash a bottle of champagne on its face. And name it in a naming ceremony. It's Sketch Face.